Whatdoesitreallymeantocomehome?

Ghalib Hafiz

All right, so I'm really looking forward to today's podcast. We had our previous episode on technology. Mustafa and myself were part of it. What I'm particularly excited about is that this one is not technical. There's no subject matter to show mastery over. We're just going to speak honestly and from the heart.

And today's podcast is about… Wapistanis. what the journey really feels like. What does it entail to be a Wapistani. Now, we've used the term Wapistanis before in one of our webinars. And interestingly, people mention it, people remember it. So it's a memorable term.

Just a disclaimer, we actually didn't coin the term. I first heard the term and I think it entered the mainstream national conversation about five years ago after the +92 Disrupt conference in Karachi. … and I think after that it went viral and a lot of people are using it. We will claim it as a label, then. As something that describes and represents us.

It also matters to Novacare because part of our mission is very simple. We state this explicitly, which is to create an unrivaled professional environment for outstanding Pakistani healthcare professionals. So to put it more plainly. We aim to bring Pakistanis back. We aim to keep Pakistanis here. And we aim to create both the professional environment and the type of life for which people would prefer to stay home versus live abroad.

Today we have several Wapistanis within Novacare. We're talking to more and more every day. This conversation is personal. I think we all fit into this label.

We'll cover five bases today, so a few themes. The first one will be about what is home. Really? What does it mean to... be a Pakistani in terms of identity, belonging, roots. We'll talk about the decision to return. Um, and you know, is the grass always greener the angst that many of us live with? The romanticization…, how does the decision actually practically play out when you’re, making it, you know, when you actually pull the trigger, so to speak. And then what happens after you return? A lot of people describe a shock, a reality check. But a lot of people also describe many upsides. A lot of joy and beauty, especially in the imperfections of returning.

And then finally, because we are geeks and nerds and we do like to show off some of our knowledge. We will talk a little bit about macroeconomics and policy, and why this is important at a national level, and we'll get a little bit patriotic.

But let's start with the first topic. And before we start, just a quick introduction. As always, very quickly you introduce the person to your right. We don't need to do a detailed professional one. We'll just keep it in terms of being a Wapistani.

So I will introduce Ali Rizvi, who is the chief people officer at NovaCare. He's had a long and illustrious career. Both within Pakistan and outside in the healthcare and pharmaceutical spaces. And he has recently returned home with Novacare to join us as our Chief People Officer, which is what makes him a Wapistani.

Ali Rizvi

Thank you. Thank you, Ghalib. Pleasure to be back.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yep. You want to introduce Mustafa then?

Ali Rizvi

So Mustafa is one of our beloved colleagues who has spent a lot of time in the US in different technology and some non-technology industry and functions. He's also a Wapistani recently returned, but not as recent as me, but I think you've been here for almost a year.

Mustafa Hassan

Three and a half years now.

Ali Rizvi

And he and his family took this decision to come back. We are very, very fortunate to have him. He's leading our technological front. Plus, he's also helping us out based on his vast experience with some other work streams including the people work stream as well. So we're grateful and we're honored to have Mustafa with us.

Mustafa Hassan

Thank you, Ali, and good to be here.

Ghalib is our visionary extraordinaire. So Ghalib and I met almost two years ago and I think I was very, very inspired by the story of Novacare and sort of the courage that it took to conceptualize what we're doing over here. So proud to see it all come together and very excited to see how it's all going to shape up over the next year and more, Inshallah.

Ghalib has spent a long and illustrious career with McKinsey & Company advising clients in the region. On many aspects and you know has had a pretty keen focus on healthcare, so deeply deeply understands the business of healthcare and is quite passionate about setting a new benchmark and very, very fortunate to have him and work with Ghalib and Ali yourself and the many of us who really come together on this Novacare journey.

Ghalib Hafiz

All right, amazing. So let's start with... What is home?

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a... It's a feeling. You know, it's sort of ephemeral and hard to describe in words, but, you know, when you're home, you know, you're sort of in a place that belongs to you, that you belong to. It's the sights and sounds, the flora and the fauna, the... people, the you know, culture. The sense of familiarity.

I think above all, it's a sense of belonging. Um, And I think that's the sense of belonging that Many of us who've been in the Pakistani diaspora never quite shed when it comes to our feeling about Pakistan.

I'm from Karachi. And I left when I was 19 years old. For the U. S. And even 10, 15 years into my time in the U. S., I still felt very, very connected. I mean, for me, yes, home was Chicago, but home was also Karachi, and home was broadly Pakistan. And Ali, I'm sure it was similar for you as well.

Ali Rizvi

Absolutely. Adding to what you just said, home is where the heart stays. I left Pakistan for the first time when I was 18 for education. The heart stayed back. and I came back.

I left Pakistan again when I was almost 15 years into my professional career. The heart stayed back. And funny story, but once I was traveling, I was in the US and I was also visiting my brother who migrated to US when he was young. and uh he asked me whenever you tell someone, whenever they ask you, you always say you’re from Pakistan, but you don’t live in Pakistan any more. And I said, what else will I say? I am from Pakistan. No matter where I live.

So yeah, home is where the heart stays.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah, I have a similar story. So I was sitting next to someone on the plane and a gentleman in his 80s from Kashmir. And he was he wanted to talk. He was oversharing. And he said, I'm returning home. So I got his entire life story, you know, how many kids he has, grandkids, etc. and he's been in the UK since the 60s … and still describes coming here as coming home, even though he probably just only comes here for two or three weeks of the year, right? His kids are born and bred in the UK. His grandkids will probably, you know, never call Pakistan home. But there is something about this notion that you leave roots where you grow up. Yeah. And those roots, you know, no matter what happens, they never disappear.

And I had a similar experience. I grew up in Pakistan, but also in many different countries. I returned to one country that I lived in, Greece, Athens, after almost 25 years. And there's just something really, really special, a strange kind of emotional pull about the place where you grew up.

Mustafa Hassan

And you know, I think some of this feeling permeates into the second generation as well. Um, you know, A lot of my family moved to the U.S. Many, many years ago, and their kids are now grown up. Or even among friends and colleagues. When I interacted with, you know, kids who essentially were born abroad and spent their entire lives abroad, it was interesting to me that, you know, even they felt a sense of belonging to this place.

And while this wasn't their primary home, there was this feeling that this is the place that they can always go to and we'll welcome them as one of theirs. So I think... this feeling and this, you know, once you lay down these roots, permeate from one generation to another.

And I think, um, we in Pakistan are actually very fortunate to have an incredible diaspora. And I think this diaspora has a real sort of sense of wanting to give back to this place in some capacity. And for most people, the easiest thing is to do something financially, right? You donate to an earthquake or a... disaster or building a school. But I think they really yearn to do something meaningful with their intellect because I think it gives to them a higher sense of purpose and meaning. And I think that's a feeling that is common across the board, whether you're in the West or in the Middle East or even in the Far East.

Ali Rizvi

Yeah, absolutely. One quick example, a bit of humor. So, most of my cousins, who are not Pakistanis by their first nationality, would still support Pakistan when it comes to cricket. Instead of UK or some other country, so that also tells you, even if you were not born here, you were not raised here. Somehow, your ancestral home is still closer to you.

Ghalib Hafiz

Okay. So, you know, this is home. We've defined a little bit home, identity, belonging, nostalgia. Um, the decision to come back. So, you know, like yourselves, I left for university. I remember taking the Emirates flight to London. And, you know, it says, 'Welcome aboard.' But I misread that as like, 'Welcome abroad.' And I was like, 'Yes.!'

Ali Rizvi

Made it!

Ghalib Hafiz

But, you know, I've always lived with the assumption. That sooner or later I'm coming back. And, you know, for me, it's a question, I mean, I'm speaking in the abstract a little bit, but it's this idea of belonging and dignity and all with the grass is always greener, right? When we were here, it was, yes, you know, welcome abroad, like we made it. And then when I was there, it was always, OK, let's go back. That's going to be that, that's ultimately where. I have to end up. And did you guys experience something similar?

Ali Rizvi

Yep. So before I went for the education, I had made a trip to the UK, which was my maternal home. and but it was always vacations, so it was fun and I always look forward to going back. Um, Lahore was where the heart was, so I always look forward to once I was in the UK to go back as well and the same thing happened once I finished the education chapter. Let's go back where we have fun, etc.

But for me, as I was fortunate, I started working with foreign companies or multinational companies. And I always got this opportunity of traveling abroad. I never kind of felt that I was only in Pakistan. So while you're working with MNCs, you're working with people across the globe and you travel, and you meet with them, also so I never had that feeling or never missed that international touch. But .... There was this one thing always in my mind when I saw people who were in regional roles and managed regions, that yes, I'm managing a country or working in a country, I would one day broaden my knowledge and experience and capabilities and should do an international role. If for that I have to stay abroad, I will. So that was the feeling there, but purely based on learning, building competence.

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah, I mean, for me, it was kind of similar. I was very excited to go to the US at the age of 19 because I had this Hollywood view of what college in the US would look like. And actually, it ended up being quite close to the Hollywood version. And it was a great run, but...

Ghalib Hafiz

You were in a frat house?

Mustafa Hassan

Right next to one. Um, And, you know, over time... you know, started my professional career, you know, got married, had kids, and I would visit Pakistan, you know, about once a year for a couple of weeks, usually for a wedding. Um, And there was always this sense that, okay, when the time is right, when the conditions are right, I would like to return. But I would come back to Pakistan. Not as an act of sacrifice, but as an act of living a more fulfilled life. And I could in my head have a version of what that could look like.

But, you know, I mean, Pakistan went through a pretty tough period from the mid-2000s right up until the late, you know, 2010s. And then, you know, we got hit by COVID. Um, And among my friends in the US, I was always the guy who would always say that, you know, one day I'm going to move back to Pakistan. And what we would do is, me and some of my close friends, we would make these annual trips together. We would go somewhere, right? Hiking or camping or something. Part of that experience was to reflect on some of the deeper, larger questions of life.

And in 2019, we were having this late night conversation. and I started going on my Pakistan rant all over again. And one of my friends was like, 'Listen. I've been hearing you talk about this for a decade. But you've not done a damn thing about it. So what's the plan? And he's like, 'Listen, if you're serious about this, you need to start making some kind of an effort towards, you know, understanding if this is what you actually want in life.

Interestingly, COVID hit in 2020, and that allowed me an opportunity to actually spend an extended period of time in Pakistan.' You know I would … Come to Karachi, work out of Karachi, you know, for a couple of months at a time, and started really getting a feel for, you know, what life in sort of reality in practical terms would look like. And I think that was a really meaningful experience for me. And I think I left, actually, convinced that I don't want to live in Karachi anymore, because of all of the, you know. But, you know, I mean, life is not linear. It goes in strange, short twists and turns. I had been in healthcare the entirety of my career. An amazing opportunity came up with Aga Khan University. It's an institution whose ethos in which I deeply believed in. And that really became the vehicle to bring me back to Pakistan. Uh, And, you know, I mean, the rest is history, but three and a half years in. I think it's one of the best decisions I've made.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah, if a... Novacare recruiter reaches out to you, you know, you know, there's a fork in the road.

Mustafa Hassan

Sometimes, you know, you've got to take that leap of faith.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yep. Also, I had something similar, which is every year I would discuss with my wife. You know, let's just wait one more year, let's wait one more year. You know, let the kids grow up a bit more. We like the nursery they're in. We like the primary school, et cetera. But there's this holding pattern almost. Yep. And you know, when the professional opportunity presents itself, so you know, when we finally lined up all the ducks for Novacare. It was okay, you know, life is too short.

Mustafa Hassan

And that's the thing, right? I think many of us go through life with a certain view in mind and a certain desire to want to come back. Um, and I think for a lot of people the question is, 'Kai bhai, hum Pakistan jaa ke karenge kya?' And I think it's a very valid concern, right?

Because if you spend so much hard work and time and energy building yourself and building something for yourself, you can't just let go of that for an uncertain future and for no clarity. And I think, frankly, I think, that's not the right way to do it either. Yeah. But then, you know, if you're. In that sort of mindset, and you're scanning, and you're plugged in enough into the ecosystem. There may be an opportunity. That comes up and it'll come out of nowhere, you know, when you probably least expect it. Um, And at that point in time, you know, you just got to make the call.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah. Yep. No, and I think if I just reflect, one of the decision points, or one of the factors, was: When you're abroad, you know, you kind of belong, right? You create your space, but you don't belong by default. And you're a small cog in a very large machine.

I think one of the joys of, you know, both coming back here and being part of Novacare is … you're a fish in a pond. And the relative size sort of matters. So there are things that you can do here at home just by default that you cannot dream about.

And it goes back to, you know, there is a belonging, there is a dignity here that is just ... cannot be no matter where you are, no matter how successful you are. It just cannot be replicated anywhere else.

Ali Rizvi

Absolutely. And a little bit on the opportunity side as well. So I think I learned it or I heard it somewhere a long time ago and I said, what is opportunity? Wherever there are problems, there are opportunities. So whenever you encounter a problem or see a problem, that's actually an opportunity because you find a solution. It becomes an opportunity for you. I always looked at Pakistan as a place. Even while I was in Europe, which was a mature market, and then in the Middle East, which was an emerging market, I always saw Pakistan as a place which was very dry when it came to... competition. So therefore you could actually do a lot more here easily, easier than what you can do in markets where there is a lot more competition. So I always saw the country as a very good opportunity where you can do very little good, but it will, and you will outshine all others.

The other thing that I saw as an opportunity here is that you could do a lot more with very little, because again, the cost of doing business here is a lot less than many other places. The regulations are not as strict as they are in other places and therefore the opportunity cost of doing something is much lower. And higher in other markets too, so that's how I see or I saw always Pakistan as an opportunity. Still do. There's a lot more that we can do here. Much more. Easily. And effectively.

Mustafa Hassan

Totally

Ghalib Hafiz

Again, you know, describe the moment at which that, so you said the opportunity with Al Khan, but. You made the decision. How did it play out in the beginning? And describe the time that you were making the decision.

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah, it was actually Ramzan 2022. It was April 2022. And, you know, I'd gone through, you know, a series of conversations with AKU, met a lot of their senior leadership, and generally was feeling interesting. You know, I thought it was an interesting move, but I was also at a place in my career where things had just come together. It was sort of the, I'd done … I’d gotten what I thought I wanted to get out of the U. S. experience. And I could see a very comfortable life, at least as far as the creature comforts were concerned.

Um, when the opportunity with AKU came up, you know, my wife and I had been talking about this for some time.I told my parents and, you know, they found it kind of hard to contain that excitement because they were trying to sound all, okay, you know, you have to do what's best for yourself. But I could sense in their voice, you know, sort of the suppressed desire to have, you know, one of their children, you know, come back, come back home.

The real moment was I went to see one of our relatives in Chicago. And, um, you know, uh, I told them, you know, I have this opportunity in Pakistan. It's, you know, really interesting. It's very close to what I've been doing. And I'm wondering if I should take it or not. He just starts crying. Um, you know, like his just eyes swell up and, you know, and … so he lost his father, you know, three or four months prior to that. And he said, 'Listen, there's no amount of money or anything I could get just to get that time with him.' And, you know, he had spent most of his life living away, right? And he would see his parents once a year. And he said, 'If that's the kind of opportunity you're getting, you don't need to think twice about it.'

And I think, you know, I was in this analysis paralysis mode, but that was such a moment of clarity. I came back home. I signed that offer letter. I sent it off to AKU. And my wife and I were like, 'All right, let's start packing up.' We have three months to move.

Ghalib Hafiz

Okay, but how many? Okay, so that's one side, I'm sure. Kitnay logon ne kaha ke tumhara dimaagh kharab hai?

Mustafa Hassan

Everyone. Um, one of my closest friends was supporting this throughout, but every person was like, 'Are you... Tum paghal hog aye ho? Are you crazy? Who does that? Are you stupid?' After all this, you're gonna just let it all go? And in my mind, I was like, 'I'm not letting anything go.' I mean, I believe in a fairly dynamic, fluid world. So, I mean, if I hate it, I'll come back. Um, but, um, you know, and that was a time of mass exodus also in 2022, and the macro situation. I feel like I was the silly person rushing back to Pakistan among a flood of people trying to exit. So, yeah, I mean, there was a lot of naysayers.

Ghalib Hafiz

It's like the disaster movies where there's a traffic jam. Everybody's trying to leave town and you're the one guy running in.

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah. But, you know. It also felt kind of heroic to do it at that time. Because it's like, you know what? This is a wild idea. But life's too short. And Ghalib keeps saying this. Life is too short, and you've got to take your chances when you get them.

Ali Rizvi

Oh, absolutely. With me, it happened in 24. It was like I said, it was always planned. So my return was linked with some financial goals which were linked to my children's education. So the moment those financial goals were met, I exactly knew the date by which it would happen, etc. I knew that, you know, the handcuffs are gone. Well, they were golden handcuffs. I must say it's not easy to let go. Money is never enough and therefore you always want more and more to come. But that's the trap that I always see with money. At what cost? What is the cost at which you're earning more money? What is the cost of the comfort? That you are getting used to. You become addicted to comfort. And there is a huge difference between comfort and happiness.

So, comfort at the cost of happiness, it's a no. Fortunately, the moment I started thinking about it, I think only a couple of months later, somebody talked to me about you guys. And then the conversation started, and then only it was a matter of the plan in terms of what happens next, etc. I wouldn't say it was easy. But because I had been thinking about it and I had been reinforcing myself about this when the time came, yes, difficult, but it was possible.

And you know, a wise man once said, 'Jump into what you fear and the fear will go away.' So I always reminded myself the same. Once I'm on the plane, it'll be fine. And this was the second time it happened. So back in 2005, when I was moving out of Lahore, I had two options or offers. One was in the UAE with a bank, which was a local bank. One was in Karachi, which was with a multinational company. And I personally thought that, for a career that I was looking at, you know, that opportunity in Karachi was both better in terms of the corporate that I would work for and also the position.

Whereas in terms of, you know, the location, Dubai was obviously a no-brainer. And at that time, there were many, many, many naysayers. And in fact, those who knew that I had two options, they said, 'You're such selfish.' You think about career, you prefer career over your family, etc. And I said, but my family is perfectly fine with me going to Karachi. They're fine with that. And we had a wonderful time in Karachi. And if you honestly ask me, I think now I have more friends from Karachi than from the north. Um, but that was also a success. So the moment I... landed in Karachi until the time I stayed there. I think I stayed there for almost five and a half years.

It was joy every day. I enjoyed every moment of it. So I thought that the same thing is going to happen this time as well. And it was exactly the same. When I joined Novacare. Um, it was the last day in the previous organization, the first day here. All I got was a weekend in between, and I took some leave to attend a wedding. But then, the moment I landed in Islamabad and... I remembered in my first spell I stayed here for 50 days on my own. It was a joy, right every day was joy, something new, etc. So …

Ghalib Hafiz

Time. Time back as a bachelor. I don't know. Okay. When a NovaCare recruiter reaches out, you know, the door, the light bulb lights up. I've heard you mention Mustafa before, so I want to get to this exchange rate of happiness versus comfort. And I've heard you mention this has stuck with me. Which is in Pakistan. You might not be as cash rich, but you're very time rich. Yeah. And in the US or anywhere else, you’re time poor. Maybe cash rich. Say more.

Mustafa Hassan

Totally right. It just, I think, goes to sort of a core principle, which is agency. At some point in time, you reach a point where you know, you can see the numbers in your bank go up, but if you're not utilizing your time, doing meaningful, high-impact things that bring true joy to you, if you know. You know, you have 16 hours-ish in a day. And if ten of those go to work and three of those go to chores and taking out the trash and laundry and, you know, whatever.

You're left with a couple of hours, you know, and then you have to schedule dinners two weeks in advance. What kind of a life is that? You know, I would much rather have the spontaneity of friends showing up on a Wednesday evening at 9 p. m. and then hanging out till midnight or making plans with, you know, with my wife on the fly. Let's go somewhere. Because that is where life is happening, you know? And... even when you're at work. Right. Uh, there's something you know, the cog you know, the little cog in the giant machine. You can have a great title and you can be doing... great work. I'm just speaking for myself here, right? I was passionate about my work in healthcare in the US as well.

But I felt like I was just a drop in the ocean. Over here, even when I'm at work, I feel like. I can just feel it, right? I mean, in my interactions with people, whether it's... hiring people, whether it's grooming people you know for leadership positions, whether it's thinking about what we're going to do at Nova Care and you know how we're going to build things. There's a certain joy in the meaning and the purpose where even that time spent at work doesn't feel like a job, right? It feels like it's a mission. It's part of a larger purpose. Part of a larger sort of effort. Being in this, you know, social fabric that is very deeply mine.

Ghalib Hafiz

So what happens after you return? A lot of people describe sometimes a shock, a reality check. Um, I've. sometimes called it the, you know, valley of sorrow. I think you mentioned that once you're on the plane, you make your peace with it. But have you had any low points or any... points where you said, mein ne kya kar diya hai you know …

Mustafa Hassan

'Oh my goodness.' Well, I mean, we came back August 2022 and, you know, the country was a disaster. The floods had hit, 40% of Pakistan was submerged. We were in a macroeconomic crisis on the brink of default. We were in a political crisis. There's negativity. And the currency lost, you know, what, 40% of its value within a short period of time. And, yeah, I mean, I used to stay up at night thinking, 'What the hell have I done?' And, you know, we were living with my parents at that time. We didn't have our own space.

Substantial reverse culture shock, et cetera. And, but in my mind, I said, 'You know what? Let's give it a good three years. Let's not complain for three years. In three years, if I'm not happy, I'll start complaining a lot So, you know, you get through it. I think my wife and my family in general were incredibly, incredibly supportive. And, you know, we got through it.

It's not easy. I mean, I didn't know, I knew going into this that I wasn't signing up for easy. Right, if signing up for easy was the MO, then, you know, we were a state in Chicago. So I knew it was going to be hard, and in the moment I recognized that this is the hard that I knew was going to come.

But I think this is settling in period. For us, it took about a year and a half or so. Um, and you know, after that point it starts turning around and slowly, you know, you feel like you're actually doing or starting to do what you had in mind. And once that realization hits, it's like a pretty beautiful moment of clarity.

Ali Rizvi

Hmm. So, I mean, there are people who actually shake your confidence. I must say, so yes. I mean, I do make my place once I board the flight. But I remember in the first few months when I was getting introduced to people outside of workplace, of course, each one would say, 'Why would you come back?' So whenever somebody told them, 'Okay, this is Ali, he's just returned to Pakistan from the UAE.' I said, 'Why?' Kyun?

And I jokingly said, 'Well, you know, if 250 million... People live in Pakistan, I can also live.' And the guy would say, 'Yeah, but if those 250 million people had a visa, they would leave.' So they do shake your confidence. But there was something that one of my VPs at Shell mentioned on the day I joined. And it stayed with me. So he said, look, Shell is a sea. uh You know, there are so many things here. My advice to you as a new joiner is for the first six months, keep your eyes and ears open and mouth shut. and you'll be okay in six months so … Just like I think if we give ourselves six months to a new organization, maybe a year to a new place that we are settling in, we should be all right … and if humans can live anywhere i can also live there that's that's what my confidence is

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah, there's oxygen. There's clean water.

Mustafa Hassan

I mean, you kind of had the same thing, right? You were at McKinsey, you were in private equity, you were doing all of this work in the Middle East. There was no shortage of opportunity, but you chose to be in Islamabad on a chilly winter morning. Right. What was going through your head?

Ghalib Hafiz

No, so, uh, uh, again, I... Absolutely love being here. Um, and we can romanticize this stuff. We're going to do that. But the chill, the crispness in the air is beautiful. You know, last night, again, we said, 'OK, if there's oxygen, there is Nestle Pure Life.' But last night there was Shaljam Gosht at home. And how many times did you eat Shaljam Gosht in Chicago, right? Right, uh. It's, you know, not only tasty but it's uh, it's healthy, it's good for you. So, you know, cooked subzi, catered by my mother. You know, these things are priceless.

Doing business in Urdu. You know, we just had a meeting with a bunch of engineers on the site. And there is just a joy in, you know. the language, the non-verbal cues, even the the galian, the um, there's just a joy in doing that that you will never get in a boardroom in Riyadh, right? Like sitting with a Saudi and a Lebanese and you know, maybe a Western expat.

Mustafa Hassan

It's been so fun relearning Urdu slang because I was so out of it. And, you know, I'd moved back, and somebody came into a meeting and said, yaar chunna lag gya hai. I said … What?

Ghalib Hafiz

Thank you. Yeah, and we've also talked about this, right? Reverse kai culture shock and people can tell ke humari urdu kamzor hai. So, you know, even that, the process of getting fluent again and not sounding like a complete burger or a complete papu. Yeah. Even that is amazing, right? Like going on monologues in Urdu, like explaining to someone, this is what I want. Yeah. There's just joy in that also.

Ali Rizvi

Yep. True. True.

Ghalib Hafiz

And I think the other thing is there is beauty in the imperfections. There is so much beauty in those.

Ali Rizvi

I met a candidate this morning, technically very, very competent, functionally very, very competent. And, you know, when I was asked for my input and said, you know, just the right guy, functionally, technically so solid. The only thing is he's just so raw. And then the moment I said this, I said, 'Well, here's the opportunity.' I mean, we're looking and we're searching for technical and functional competence. And if you find a person who's a bit raw, that means that we can actually invest into him. And. there is room for investment. Being raw means the person is ready to absorb a lot of knowledge and capability. So again, I looked at it as an opportunity. Wonderful. We don't have somebody who's so shaped and so firm with what they bring with us that it would be difficult for us to teach them or align them with our culture. The assimilation is going to be easier, etc. and then for the individual coming in, they would also see, or he or she would also see, it as an opportunity for development besides the functional competence development in the career. So yes, wherever there is imperfection, there is room for making it perfect, which is the actual joy.

Mustafa Hassan

You know, when you're part of such a well-oiled machine for so long, I think over time we just become a little bit uptight. Group. Um, What I learned coming back is that You know, you don't. You shouldn't sweat the small stuff. Just let it go. You know, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

Ali Rizvi

Yeah. There comes a time when you also think that, you know, you're there for a reason. So if you're not adding value, or if you're not adding as much value as you can, then you should move out. This also reminds me when people ask me, so I worked with multiple organizations. and when people ask me which one is which, is the one that you miss the most. So I said, okay. So I miss all of them because I worked with really nice people. It's very difficult to put, or to name, or nominate one.

But I do miss Shell for the world-class technology and processes and practices that the company had. And said, then why did you leave it? And I said, because I felt I was just part of a machine. There was no creativity. I wasn't doing anything. Everything was so perfect that the COEs would create something and we would just implement it to the countries where we lived. The reason why I moved out was that I was losing my creativity and I wanted to be part of an organization which still depends on me. In contributing something. Yeah. So that has lived with me always. and even for the organizations where I worked, long, I mean, past a decade, I did five or six roles purely because, when you spend time in one role, you become a little bit bored and you want to learn something new as well.

When I think about Pakistan, I think Pakistan always welcomes everybody with open arms. Some of it has to do with the geopolitical situation also, which I have been reflecting for so many months. What I see going on, especially in the Middle-East, working with nationalities who don't have a citizenship. There are, you know, people who cannot go back to their own country because of some situations, etc. And they say, 'Okay, what if?' Our job goes away. And we have to leave UAE. There's no place for us to go.

There were people who did not want to go back to their home countries because of the economic conditions. And I always said, I am so lucky because the day I... don't need to live here or if I'm unable to live here, I'll just fly back to Pakistan and I'll be happy there. So this is how I always thought, and hence it was always easy for me moving back.

And to the contrary … like many in the Middle-East say Pakistan is only a couple of hours flight away. Trust me … I haven’t, I was unable to travel back to Pakistan many times for multiple years. My last trip before joining Novacare was three years ago for a vacation. The one before that was almost three years ago. The one before was another four years ago. It was purely coincidental. My children were in different places. Most of the time, we would spend vacations with them, etc. It wasn't that easy. And there were a couple of occasions where I was unable to travel to Pakistan. Also.

Um, But having said all of that, I think, if I were to say it's easy moving back, it's not easy because you get used to a certain lifestyle when you live somewhere. Do you look forward to it? Absolutely. You always look forward to it because you want to contribute. You want to come back. It's like giving back to the community or giving back to the society from which you took a lot. So …

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah, listen this morning, the hot water ran out, geyser, gas chali gayi this raat ko ...

Ali Rizvi

So you had a cold shower?

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah. … You face a choice.

Ali Rizvi

Yeah. 2022 aaya … I still remember that, it happened with me too. Somebody forgot to switch on the water on heater in the morning, which has to be done at 5 am in the morning, because 11:30 pe gas chali jaati hai. I took a cold shower. December 2022, Lahore.

Mustafa Hassan

I think you'd realize that creature comforts have diminishing returns. Hmm. after a certain point in time and you know i think these little things They're pretty annoying in the moment, I hate. cold water at 7 in the morning. You know, you move on.

Ghalib Hafiz

As long as there's oxygen. Okay. All right, just as we promised, we will geek out a little bit.

So, you know, I think you guys mentioned that... The macroeconomic situation has been particularly acute. Last year, 1. 6 million people left Pakistan, which was the largest ever outflow in our history. It is actually the highest among any country in the world. Um, especially as a share of the population. Just to put that in perspective, India lost half that number for a population that is seven times larger.

So, and I think what's particularly bad about the last few years is I've had friends and family who were always here. They were never going to leave. And even some of them finally sort of picked up and left. Um, so, you know, again, just coming back to the, you know, patriotism and Novacare's mission. I think it's institutions like us who do a little bit to reverse this tide.

We are slowly starting to resemble a Lebanon, you know, a country where the diaspora is actually, I mean, I don't think the diaspora will ever be as big as the local population because I think our population is forecast to hit something like half a billion in the next 30 years or so. But the diaspora starts to hold more economic... power than the homeland itself. And it's very interesting.

Normally, we celebrate this because, you know, remittances are, you know, this is how we pay for imports. But the economist Atif Mian at Princeton has actually pointed out quite insightfully that this heavy remittance flow is actually not good for the local economy. Right, it creates a Dutch disease. You get these hot flows, and it actually makes the local economy uncompetitive and it makes it very vulnerable to external shocks. So the more we can actually create institutions like Novacare at home. Um, that you know, make people productive and useful for the wider world, the more I feel that you know, we are, you know, really sort of promoting the mission as patriotic Pakistanis of making this country great.

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah, for sure. Right. And I think, speaking to the outflow of people, you can't fault people for wanting to leave. I think everybody seeks to create a better life, right, for themselves and their family. And it's never easy to leave home and leave comfort and be in an alien place and start all over again, right?

But if that's the right thing to do, that is the right thing to do. And Ghalib, you're totally right, right? I mean, if we had 10 different Novacares and, you know, 10 AKUs and, you know. These are the kinds of things that create that reverse pull. Um, And I think that's part of why we are so committed to the Novacare mission is because, yes, Inshallah, we're going to build an incredible hospital. It will save lives and, you know, deliver great care. But I think it'll be an institution. That showcases that this is possible in Pakistan. And if others can be inspired by this journey. And do something like this as well or be inspired by our mission and come join us in helping build Novacare to what we aspire it to be. I think that would be a great thing to do.

Ali Rizvi

Fully agree and I, you know, while so many people left, they they left out of a problem or an issue. Nobody left happily. They left because they had to leave, based on whatever the circumstances were. So, if I think about it, if they were given an opportunity to stay back where they're earning and they're... living comfortably, they would stay back. They would prefer to stay back.

Now, I remember I spoke with, I think I was working with Levi's when I asked the country manager. These companies, these multinational companies, take so much of franchise fee away from us. What's the point of having them in Pakistan? And he thought about it and he said, well, there is one thing. They bring best practices and therefore the local industry, when they look at these multinationals coming in also evolves and develops.

Now, Many years later, when the Novacare opportunity came in, the only thing that stuck to my mind when I was evaluating opportunities, one was in Lahore, one was in Islamabad, besides Islamabad being the city, which I would want to stay in, or prefer… Novacare the brand and the product that we were making was something that was awesome.

We are going to build a hospital. which is unique and the first one in Pakistan. It's going to be a world-class hospital. You walk into a hospital and it doesn't look like a hospital. It looks like a hotel. So this is going to be that hospital. There is no other in Pakistan so far, not even Aga Khan. You walk into Aga Khan, it's a great hospital, but it's a hospital.

Um, would you want to be part of that journey? Absolutely. I mean, if I'm part of the founding team, why not? I would be making this hospital a great place. And then experience that people will get by visiting and the experience that the patients are going to get and their families are going to get, again, that's also unique. So this is something which is a big pull factor for anybody like me and many others as well. What we produce as a product is not only for us. We also set an example for others to follow.

So I'm very much hoping that, once we are done, we are also going to see a lot others investing into the same area and coming up with product, sometimes even better than us, which is perfectly fine. Because if we have good competition, it will help us improve and grow.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yeah, listen, I mean, I think competition is the name of the game. Let's... create an ecosystem where, you know, everybody does it better and everyone sort of learns from each other.

Um, Okay. Just some closing thoughts. So I think, you know, we're at time. Unless there's anything you guys want to share.

Ali Rizvi

Well, I do want to share with people who are thinking of moving back and cannot decide because of pressures, etc. Look, the first and foremost, obviously, personal family needs. These are important. So there is no question about it. Don't get into something which gets your family into trouble or puts yourself into trouble.

It has to be a joint decision. And there are always options and solutions available. So … I am lucky. I mean, my family was very, very supportive. In fact, they were more of a push factor than a pull factor. Um. So that's very important. That's one. I think the other thing is have faith. You know, there are people living in Pakistan who are happy, so we can be one of those happy ones as well. and this is exactly what i thought when i was moving to karachi whenever somebody told me about … o Karachi mein tau ye ho jaata hai, who tau haan ye ho jaata hai. Gun point pe phone cheen kar le jaate hain. Aisa ho jaata hai, waisa ho jaata hai.

So I thought to myself … Karachi mein us waqt 14 million population thi. So I thought to myself, ke hazar, dau hazar lut-tay hon ge na roz, tau who jo baki ke 13 million whatever 900 thousand hein, un mein so bhi aik ho sakta hoon.

So fortunately I was one of those for the five and a half years. Touch wood. So there will be horror stories that people will tell you but trust me those horror stories are fewer than the ones which you know where people lead normal lives so jis tarha hum probability ke baare mein sochtay hain …uh ke okay because there is a higher probability this will happen and we base our decision on that bilkul issi tariqe se waapis aane ka bhi sochiye

Um, The other thing. The disappointment is only the difference between expectation and reality. So, if you manage your expectations, there is absolutely no disappointment. So I manage my expectations ke paani garam Nahin aaye ga. Ghar shayad itna saaf na mile … dhoondna pare ga. Sarkon mein traffic jo hai who thora sa mismanaged ho ga. But is it something that I cannot deal with? No, I can deal with it. Why not? So... These are some of the sorts.

Mustafa Hassan

Yeah, I mean, I would echo what you're saying. For somebody who's thinking about making the move back, I think there's an analytical portion of that thinking, which is, okay, am I going to have the basic level of security and comfort and community, et cetera, right? And everybody has to assess that for their own individual situations and what they're leaving, et cetera.

But, you know, there's only so much analysis you can do. At some point, you're going to take a leap of faith. Yeah. And you know, there's something beautiful about following your heart.

Um, we spend too much of our lives I think being practical and pragmatic and this and that. But there are times when the practicalities are more or less worked out. And it's really a matter of the heart. And in that moment, if you follow your heart, it might not be an easy journey. But I can promise you it's going to be worth it.

Ali Rizvi

Yeah, just one last thing which I actually picked up from my daughter just before we were making those decisions. Zainab said, 'In my life, I have only regretted the decisions or the things that I did not do. So that stuck in me.'

Mustafa Hassan

Warren Buffett checked the same thing. Did he? Yeah. Great minds.

Ali Rizvi

Yeah, yeah. So she somehow left us and moved to South Korea, which was Still. Very very shocking for everybody, including me, including the people in South Korea. But that's what she mentioned to me, and that was probably the decision-making with the turning point. Yeah. At best, what would happen if I regret? I'll move back.

Ghalib Hafiz

She's on an odyssey. She's on an adventure.

Okay. All right, a few key takeaways, just very practically. NovaCare recruiter reaches out, a real portal has opened up, a door has opened up. Listen to your heart. Uh, get the Put the naysayers in perspective, there will be many of them. Put that in perspective. And again, I'm being a bit dry in my sense of humor here.

I mean, this episode isn't about convincing anyone to return. It's more three stories, three journeys. Talking about identity, all the contradictions. The you know and the quiet pull of home and I think all three of us are quite happy and uh to be here and uh excited and hopefully you know sort of we've given a little bit of perspective to our listeners in terms of what it means to be back both in Pakistan and at Novacare. Thank you, Mustafa. Thank you, Ali.

Mustafa Hassan

Thanks, Ghalib. It's another fun podcast, so I look forward to a lot more.

Ghalib Hafiz

Yep. And we shall continue this series. You'll see a lot of new faces. You've seen the same two faces so far, but you'll see a lot of new faces also on our side.

Ali Rizvi

Fabulous.